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Essays 12 February 2022, 18:35

If My Kid Wanted to Be a Game Developer I Would Tell Her Not To - Interview with Jason Schreier

Press Reset is Jason Schreier's second book, in which he shows what a game developer's dream job really is. It's also a great opportunity to ask him whether he will add the missing chapter about Cyberpunk to the book.

Reading the new book by perhaps the world's most recognizable gaming journalist, Jason Schreier, might give you some extremely ambivalent feelings. On the one hand, the author tells a lot of interesting and often amusing anecdotes and tidbits from the mysterious world of gamedev inaccessible to ordinary mortals; on the other, he shows how the creation of these amazing and beautiful works of art, of the games we all love, is often based on exploitation, violence and regular meanness. Some of these difficult and sad stories have resulted in such titles as BioShock, BioShock Infinite, Enter the Gungeon, The Bureau: XCOM Declassified, Dead Space or Dungeon Keeper (2013). Some of these productions were hugely successful, others we would rather forget – but all of them were made by creative and passionate people, whom the industry abused in the end.

Blood, sweat and pixels

Jason Schreier's first book, Blood, Sweat, and Pixels: The Triumphant, Turbulent Stories Behind How Video Games Are Made.

Sometimes, it wasn't just about money (though most of the time it was exactly about it). Sometimes, it was about the incompetence of managers and executives that created miserable conditions in their studios. For many, working in gamedev seems a dream job – we imagine creating monumental games played by people around the world. Meanwhile, Schreier exposes the other, much darker side of gamedev – the instability of employment, the constant risk of being fired (even if you're one of the top pros in the business), being forced to move from city to city, or country to country, crunch, and finally the silent killer of the 21st century – stress. Press Reset is a book that you just have to read if you plan on working in gamedev.

The publication of the book was the perfect opportunity to talk to the author about the issues of modern gamedev. So, I arranged an interview and asked the man himself a few questions – including whether he ever wore a bulletproof vest and whether he had ever faced threats, and above all, whether he would add the missing chapter on Cyberpunk 2077 to his book after the game's unfortunate launch.

Matthias Pawlikowski: After reading your book, it's kinda easy to feel guilty about playing video games. I don't know if after learning the history of Irrational Games, I will ever be able to enjoy BioShock again. I would definitely perceive this game a little differently. Why is it that so many of these fantastic experiences that AAA games bring us are so often built on foundations of exploitative tribulation? And even more importantly, why aren't players usually aware of this?

I mean it's a good question. I don't know, I'm sure there are a lot of reasons why. I think the number one reason is that making games is really hard. People always think it's going to take less time. People are always super ambitious. They want to do all these crazy things. Planning is really hard and there are all sort of complicated factors. I think people have gotten a little bit more educated on how games are made and how stressful the process is. One of my favorite things about my first book Blood, Seat, and Pixels one of my favorite reactions that I saw in people after was that they were like: "Wow, now I'll never call a game developer lazy again.” Which is good to hear. It's important for game developers to speak about their experiences and for journalists to help clarify for readers, gamers, and fans exactly why it takes to do this sort of things.

BioShock, the legendary shooter, was also born in pain... And among the yelling of its creator and autocratic visionary, Ken Levine. - If My Kid Wanted to Be a Game Developer I Would Tell Her Not To - Interview with Jason Schreier - dokument - 2022-04-26
BioShock, the legendary shooter, was also born in pain... And among the yelling of its creator and autocratic visionary, Ken Levine.

Your book is about people who have been abused by the gaming industry. Sure, there's plenty of humor and interesting anecdotes, but at the same time, there's so much stuff that's just dark and heavy, there's tragedies of real people that actually got me wound up a few times when reading. I empathized with them and I wished I could help them somehow, but to tell you the truth, I don't know how. How can we influence these stories as players and consumers?

Yeah, I don't think there's a lot that the average gamer can do. Because this is ultimately like a workplace issue, a labor issue and that can only really be solved by employees, employers, and the law. I do think, however, that just speaking out and being supportive in public can be helpful. And really – just not being a jerk. There's so many people out there on the internet; so many video game fans that are just constantly being assholes to everybody: to game developers, to other gamers, to journalists. And I think if you simply are not being one of those people, you're already doing something. But yeah, fundamentally this is an issue that I discussed in Press Reset about volatility and people just losing their jobs almost arbitrary. And that's an issue that I think is something the workers have to deal with themselves. And it's going to be up to those people to proactively figure out the best way to solve some of their problems.

And there are some solutions in works. Some answers that I explored in the book are already happening. Even now – I wrote in the book about how COVID was changing the industry because remote work is really going to help people in a number of ways. For example, one of the awful things about getting laid off from Irrational Games was that you were stuck in Boston, all the way in the East Coast, without too many other game companies there, certainly not many triple-A game ones, while there's a lot of big, triple-A game companies on the West Coast, 3000 miles away from Boston. So I think one of the worst things about getting laid off there is not that you were worried about finding another job. Many of those people were able to find other jobs pretty quickly. The problem was to move 3000 miles away for the job, and I think if the remote was an option back then, it really would change things for a lot of people because they wouldn’t have to pool their kids out of school. So, that alone is helping things for the better.

Yes, you write about it in your book. I imagine being in a relationship with a game producer – being their partners or spouses can't be easy. You always have to be ready to move out to another city, even to another country. How did listening to these difficult stories made you feel?

It was tough but right. I don't know but, if my kid wanted to be a game developer I would probably tell her not to because the game industry doesn’t treat people all that well. Like you said – for partners it can be really tough, and they really need to have a lot of patience. But again – things can always get better and I think they are getting better, so gradually, every year people are talking about labor issues and crunch, and I think that there’s a reason to be optimistic for sure.

The book includes an entire chapter on creating games for Disney, showing the dark side of this producer, usually associated with cute games and animations for kids. - If My Kid Wanted to Be a Game Developer I Would Tell Her Not To - Interview with Jason Schreier - dokument - 2022-04-26
The book includes an entire chapter on creating games for Disney, showing the dark side of this producer, usually associated with cute games and animations for kids.

In your new book, you repeatedly describe the situations that take place in studios belonging to the largest publishers in the world – EA, 2K or THQ. I wonder whether any of these companies reached out to you to discuss or comment on your findings, or where they completely silent? Maybe they were trying to make life and work more difficult for you?

No – they were all completely silent. Take Two, EA, well THQ doesn't exist anymore... None of them would talk about it and wouldn’t comment at all.

Big, bad corporations are not the only problem of gamedev. Sometimes projects don't work out because the wrong people are behind them. 38 Studios... Wow, this really is an amazing story about a famous baseball player who, while he admittedly didn't deliver a video game, left behind a trail of political scandals, lawsuits, and hundreds of fired people... This shows that good intentions are sometimes not enough. Has this story influenced the perception of the gaming industry as a reliable, stable environment for investment in America?

Curt Schilling and 38 Studios

Curt Schilling is a former Boston Red Sox baseball star. After retiring from sports, this gentleman became the hero of one of gaming's biggest scandals. He founded 38 Studios and began working on the "World of Warcraft killer", the MMO called Copernicus. Along the way, he acquired Big Huge Games (with which he actually managed to release a pretty solid game – Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning) and took a huge loan of $75 million (sic!)... Which he did not pay back. Eventually, all employees (several hundred people) were laid off via e-mails. For more, read Jason Schreier's Press reset.

Hmm... I don't know how investors felt about it overall. Obviously if you lived in the State of Rhode Island you would probably still have strong feelings about it. I think people there are still bitter about what happened because, like you said, it was a big scandal.

Even though you mentioned big, bad publishers, I actually don't really think there are heroes and villains here. I don't really see life as being about heroes and villains, even though some people in gaming try hard as they can to appear like cartoon villains. But I think it's just a bunch of people with different ideas of the right things to do. Fundamentally, just the quest for money and having a lot of them can really warp people's ideas of what reality is, how people should be treated, and stuff like that. I mean, the Curt Schilling story is a perfect example of how there's a lot of shades of gray, but no heroes and villains.

I think Curt Schilling is a fascinating character. Today he's gone off the deep end a little bit, some things he says are pretty wild, but back then – even though he was the guy who was having a lot of issues running the company and there was a lot of mismanagement – people loved him as a leader; he's charismatic and he really seems to treat people well – there're a lot of perks for employees, they really like working there, there's a lot of things that people appreciate about Curt Schilling. And now people feel differently towards him for a bunch of reasons, not only because what he did in the 38 Studios, but also because of his behavior and his acting-out since. But it's interesting – one of the things that surprised me while having conversations with people who worked for 38 was how much nuance there was, how they saw him as a person, and I found that really fascinating.

Indeed, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning was a pretty good game. - If My Kid Wanted to Be a Game Developer I Would Tell Her Not To - Interview with Jason Schreier - dokument - 2022-04-26
Indeed, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning was a pretty good game.

It was sad to read, though, about fired employees of 38 Studios taking equipment, TVs, monitors, etc. from the office only to get at least some semblance of compensation for the salaries they couldn't receive...

Actually, just very recently – a couple months ago – I wrote a story on Bloomberg about how a bunch of 38’s employees got like a fraction of their final checks as part of the bankruptcy settlement, so even today there's still drama happening.

I wonder how you researched this book. Our industry is one that's strictly regulated by three magical letters – NDA. AAA producers are reluctant to share what's going on inside the studios. Their main method of communicating with the world, players and the media, is false narratives and emotions fabricated by PR specialists, using cues and keywords: "amazing", "experience" and "next-gen;" it's all one big ballyhoo and double talk. Interviews with developers don't make any sense when there's an austere gentleman sitting in the corner of the room pretending not to listen, but then discretely grunting whenever you ask the wrong question. How do you find the truth in such a world, how do you uncover secrets? How do you even manage to piece it all together?

NDA

The NDA, or non-disclosure agreement, is the bread and butter of the gaming industry. In essence, an NDA is a document that protects parties who intend to exchange confidential materials or information. If, for example, I want to get The Witcher 4 for review before the launch date, I need to sign an NDA. Sometimes the NDA stipulates the precise consequences of breaching the terms of agreement (most often financial fines, but also lawsuits, etc.). In our line of work, we sign so many of them so often, that if we were to breach all of them at once, the collective fine would probably be the size of Michigan's economy. The NDA is used in literally every type of business organization around the world.

First of all, to be fair I think there are some good PR people out there who are professionals. In fact, the big company in your country, CD Projekt RED – even though I've reported quite a few things that they haven't been happy with – I found that their PR's actually incredibly professional and still communicative. Sometimes – oftentimes! – when I reported on things that a company doesn't like, they just ignore me, they just never respond. And CDPR, and some other companies, too, are having a really professional way of dealing with such things. Even though they may not like what I'm reporting, they still talk to me, are professional about it, because they know I’m just doing my job and I know they’re doing theirs. So I do think there are some good PR people out there to be fair, including some in your country.

That said – tes – I think that the NDA is a real struggle, and I think that companies very much want people to be quiet. As you related to the research that I did on Press Reset, it was just essentially interviewing a ton of people who worked for those companies and telling their stories. I think that it's actually easier to get people to talk on the record because a lot of those companies don't exist anymore. So, you don't have to worry about 38 Studios suing me, because there's no 38 Studios anymore. I also think that a lot of times, people's NDA's are not quite as enforceable when it comes to talking about their work experience, so NDA might really apply when you're talking about trade secrets like unannounced games and big things that really would hurt the company in some way or another if they became public. Whereas work experiences – I think it's a lot harder, at least in the US, to prevent people from talking about their personal experiences. So, I think people are more comfortable with that.

The creators of Enter the Gungeon once worked for EA on the production of the mobile version of Dungeon Keeper. One of the chapters in Schreier's book is devoted to their terrible story that, fortunately, had a happy ending. - If My Kid Wanted to Be a Game Developer I Would Tell Her Not To - Interview with Jason Schreier - dokument - 2022-04-26
The creators of Enter the Gungeon once worked for EA on the production of the mobile version of Dungeon Keeper. One of the chapters in Schreier's book is devoted to their terrible story that, fortunately, had a happy ending.

And the another thing is that there's strength in numbers, right? So, if there’s a lot of people willing to talk about something then I think there’s a mental calculation like: "Ok, if all these people are talking then I'm probably safe, they’re not going to sue all of us." I never seen someone in the industry sued for speaking out. At least I didn't see that personally. It may have had happened. We've seen that when people were leaking trade secrets, but not so much when they were talking about their experiences, so I think that those NDA's might be scarier than they really are. And sometimes people don't have any NDA's about their workplace experience, they're might just be like: "Oh, well, I can't talk about company secrets" and that's all. So yeah, it's a little more complicated than "I can't say anything," especially when talking about things that happened in the past, rather than in your current company.

I do get the impression, however, that from a tool designed to protect corporate interests, the NDA has become a tool of oppression. Complaining about workplace conditions is breaking a company's secret. You cannot announce that something is wrong in your company. You cannot even announce if you've been abused by someone in the company. If everything like that is a business secret disclosure, your very protest becomes illegal.

Yeah, I think that in the US there are some protections for whistleblowers, for people who are speaking out about their workplace and their experiences there, about mistreatment and anything like that, as opposed to company's secrets. And also the other thing is that a lot of people are just speaking anonymously, like for both of my books.

I keep asking about secrets and sources because, first of all, it's one of the main subjects of your book, and second, I imagine that if you were working in a slightly different industry – say if you were an investigative journalist in the real estate segment – your job would be much, much more dangerous. I mean, we all hope that as an investigative journalist in the gaming industry, you do not have to wear a bulletproof vest and be ready to spend the rest of your life hiding in Moscow, or the Ecuador Embassy, for that matter?

(Laughing) Not yet! But we shall see. Yeah, no, the only things that I have to live with are just legal threats and blacklisting. As far as I know, I don't think there's been any private investigators going after me or anything like that, but I guess there's still plenty of time, so who knows.

Blacklist

Blacklisting is a frequently used strategy in various industries, but also in politics. The blacklisted person – or economic entity – is simply completely cut off from all information, which hinders their operation, or makes it completely impossible. It's basically getting banned in real life. And it also applies in gaming.

And yet your job must be absolutely irritating to the corporate world. After all, it's not like the suits read your criticism and think, "Damn, he's right, I'm going to become a different person from now on." Have you ever faced open hostility? Except, of course, legal threats. Maybe someone didn't want to shake your hand? Has anyone made you understand that you're not welcome somewhere?

Oh yeah, definitely. Bethesda, for example. They have blacklisted me for about eight or more years. So yeah, absolutely, there are definitely people out there who hate me and don't want anything to do with me for sure, but that's kind of natural part of being a reporter – making enemies.

While writing this book, has anyone ever "advised you" to let go of a given story, not mention something?

Umm... no, not in this book. I didn't have any legal threats or issues like that. A lot of stuff in this book is the stuff that happened in the past, and these companies don't exist anymore, so people are less concerned. So well, while it certainly doesn't look good for 2K, they just didn’t say anything to me.

OK, the year is 2022 and I have the impression that your book is missing an important chapter. The one about Cyberpunk 2077...

[Laughter]

What do you think about the release of this game and CD Projekt's subsequent efforts to contain what seemed a very dire situation?

I'm really curious about it. It's such an interesting story and... Again, I don't really believe in heroes and villains. I do think there's a lot of people who are just trying their best – in the best ways they know. And it also happened that a lot of those people have made a ton of money, while a lot of good people on the bottom were overworked and have not made nearly the same amount of money but... That's just capitalism for you.

Cyberpunk 2077 may still have a chance to redeem. - If My Kid Wanted to Be a Game Developer I Would Tell Her Not To - Interview with Jason Schreier - dokument - 2022-04-26
Cyberpunk 2077 may still have a chance to redeem.

And yeah, I think it's a really interesting story. This game clearly came out too early and it wasn't ready yet... Actually, it's funny – despite all that was happening, I actually enjoyed it, and when I played some of it, I was like "You know what, I'm just going to wait until this game is finished" [laughing]... And I'm still waiting. But I'm planning on playing it when they finally release that big patch that will fix all these things. Because I'm very curious about checking it out and seeing how's the story.

But anyway, I think it's a sad story. This game was super hyped, CDPR is not a company that has a lot of games like EA or Take Two, so they heavily relied on this one game to really work out for them, and it turned out it just didn’t. And they also really hurt people along the way through hard work and some issues with their management style. I think the way they are making games is very flawed and I think that, in some ways, there were really lucky with The Witcher. So if that's the solution... It wasn't this time. It’s as if they thought, kept saying "Well, it worked out for the Witcher" where everything was just a mess and everything came together in the end. This time it just did not come together.

But I do think CDP is a company that will win back hearts and minds if they do things right, if they fix the game, if they make it really good. But I also think they lost a lot of staff recently because there's a big odplyw pracowników problem which happens all across the gaming industry these days. A lot of people are just leaving for other jobs for many reasons, so that might be a problem for them. But yeah, it's a fascinating story for sure.

Fans still remember Visceral Games' canceled Star Wars project. - If My Kid Wanted to Be a Game Developer I Would Tell Her Not To - Interview with Jason Schreier - dokument - 2022-04-26
Fans still remember Visceral Games' canceled Star Wars project.

Do you think this business will become more transparent one day?

Yeah, I do. Actually just yesterday, something interesting happened. Blizzard and Respawn announced that they're making a bunch of new Star Wars games. And what was interesting about this it's just happened kind of unceremoniously on a blog post. They were just like: "Hey, we're doing new things!" And I think that's really interesting because it's a really healthy way to go about game announcements – writing something like "well, there's a thing we're doing" instead of having everything be all about the marketing and secrecy and big E3 reveal and controlled release and all that stuff that’s so common these days. I think that's good transparency and just honesty. "Hey, we're working on this thing, come check it out and we'll talk more about it when it's ready" – I think that's very beneficial for everybody – for the fans, for the workers. I think it's really cool when that sort of things happens.

Ronald Reagan

The 40th President of the United States (between 1981 and 1989). He openly spoke out against unions in the public sector. In 1981, the so-called PATCO strike (Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization) broke out, involving some 13,000 air traffic controllers, who demanded better working conditions. In response, Reagan called it a national security threat, imposed a financial penalty and... fired 11,345 controllers who went on strike, preventing them from finding employment in the public sector for the rest of their lives.

In the last chapter, you write a lot about unions in gamedev. Literally a day or two after reading your book, we learned that Activision Blizzard’s employees successfully formed a union. I wonder... How the hell is it possible that such a large and prospering industry didn't have unions before that?

It is really interesting! I think there are many reasons. I think that, at least in the US – and everything I said is pretty US-focused just because that's where I do most of my reporting – there's been a lot of anti-union sentiment in recent years. Since Reagan presidency, unions lost a lot of their power, so there's a lot of people who don't trust unions for various reasons. I also think that gaming as a whole is full of people who believe in meritocracy, and there's a lot of libertarian attitudes, which doesn't seem to mesh well with unions – the impression might be that unions are just for lazy people, so that's one possible explanation. But there's a lot of factors, as we see with Activision – it is an ongoing story and Activision is going to try very hard to fight the union, so we shall see. I'm very curious to see what happen as a result.

Meritocracy

A doctrine/political system, in which position in society depends on competence (merit). In other words, and in what may seem a damaging simplification – if you are poor and your life is hard, it's your own fault. All external factors are of secondary importance.

From a man whose job is to get to the sources, you have become a source yourself. Everything you write is widely commented on in the world. And if you want to be completely honest here – doesn't it piss you off a little?

[Laughing] No... I've gotten used to it. I appreciate that I have such a big platform and I can reach so many people. So it's not something I can really be mad about. I appreciate that people want to listen to what I say.

And what about you personally – can you still enjoy video games after learning all these difficult stories?

Yeah! I love video games. I'm able to kind of disconnect a little bit and play games without having to think too much about thinks like "Oh my god, what’s all that blood and ruins." I'm trying not to think about that. But you know what, I heard from so many people – and Cyberpunk was a perfect example – that they have put all these hours into these games, they hated working there and it was really miserable, but they still wanted people to enjoy their work because of how many hours they invested into it. I never really heard game developers say that they wanted people not to play their game because they sacrificed so much to make them. I think it's the opposite. So I don't really feel that bad about it.

Dying Light 2. - If My Kid Wanted to Be a Game Developer I Would Tell Her Not To - Interview with Jason Schreier - dokument - 2022-04-26
Dying Light 2.

I'm playing Dying Light 2 right now – another Polish game. And I'm enjoying it. I try to play as much as possible because I think it helps the industry to be better. By the way, I was in Warsaw few years ago it was a really lovely experience. Great but cold.

Yeah, we have real winter here right now, snow and all that. But you really should come to Krakow, visit our office... Thank you for this conversation and for this wonderful book. It was sad, but at the same time fun – and above all, it was hellishly valuable.

Matthias Pawlikowski

Matthias Pawlikowski

The editor-in-chief of GRYOnline.pl, associated with the site since the end of 2016. Initially, he worked in the guides department, and later he managed it, eventually becoming the editor-in-chief of Gamepressure, an English-language project aimed at the West, before finally taking on his current role. In the past, a reviewer and literary critic, he published works on literature, culture, and even theater in many humanities journals and portals, including the monthly Znak or Popmoderna. He studied literary criticism and literature at the Jagiellonian University. Likes old games, city-builders and RPGs, including Japanese ones. Spends a huge amount of money on computer parts. Apart from work and games, he trains tennis and occasionally volunteers for the Peace Patrol of the Great Orchestra of Christmas Charity.

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